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Angst, Smut, and Explosions

No, Hiding Under Your Desk Won't Save You

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No Sir, I will not.
better future
[info]cpolk
original text found here:

So, Michael Burstein finally noticed.

On the 25th of march, I was writing an email to a member of SFWA who was asking a question that I thought I could answer, even though I am not a member of SFWA. it was an explanation on why the sfwa newsgroups and SFWA's web presence can be descibed as charmingly quaint to someone like me - how I use my computers and the internet, and other happy things. and in the midst of the message I was saying, "even if it were a phpbb that would be far better - and why doesn't sfwa have an LJ community?"

then thought, "wait, what if they do?" and looked it up. I discovered that the community had been made scant hours before. I was a little disturbed by that - I mean, lj has been around for many years. I'm an Early Adopter of LJ, and the real strength to me has always been about how the journals link. I've seen a lot of talk of how SFWA was a significant presence on GEnie in the days of the longago, and that would have made the organization an early adopter of the communication mode.

But, never mind. I set the community to *watch* as I would like to keep track of how it progressed, and there I was - the very first person to join the sfwa community. Yes. Me. *little wave*

and I thought, oh dear, won't [info]mabfan be surprised that he has a watcher already? probably he hasn't said anything about it at all. and that sparked off another idea in my head--

because there is this conversation going on in the sfwa election blog (not a newsgroup) that I can't actually participate in, but I watch with great interest, because it could mean that I might join SFWA after all.

Depending on what happens. and one of the things that I wondered is - do these folks have any idea how many people there are out there who are not members of SFWA who are *interested* in the doings of SFWA - without getting into the myriad of explanations as to what that interest is for every individual.

so the idea that sparked is, "well, we could *show* them." and then also, "and we can show them how going to where the people are already networked can *work* in their favour."

one of the problems with SFWA's community presence - the site is tucked away in a corner of the internets where only people who are looking for it will find it. but that's not the best way to take advantage of what I jokingly called "the new internet" and I decided to demonstrate it.

So I told a couple of my friends.

And I posted the news to my lj, and asked people to pass it on.

I did this on the 25th of march, just before I took off to spend a weeks vacation with my absolute favorite Hugo nominee and the best cat in the world. I asked people to join the community just to show their interest - to become a member if you are an SFWA member, and simply to watch if you are not a member but to have your presence as an interested party and possibly potential member counted. and that if you thought this was worth passing on, please post to your own journal.

well, it hasn't even been a week, and there are (not counting the founder of the community) 9 SFWA members and 77 interested persons who are not members of SFWA, as a result of my one livejournal post pointing people to the presence of that community, as a demonstration of how effective LJ could be for sfwa's outreach and visibility efforts. because face it, I am not ultra-famous LJ citizen with loads of whuffie. I'm just one of the kids, and a little bit of effort started this particular ball rolling. if one of my other friends had decided to post about it, there would have been many, many more people listed on that profile page now.

but, anyway. [info]mabfan has come back. and made a special exception to his posting rules, and made a post in the community visible to the public. in it, he asks, "how the hell did you guys find me?"

...and then made it so that non members could not post comments to the community and answer the damned question, even though it is plain that he wishes to know WHO WAS FIRST. dude, THAT WAS ME. but you want me to tell you in an email where no one else can see the answer, or what you reply to me.

No sir, I will not. One of the things that makes a large sized box of handmade chocolates more appealing than your sfwa membership is that I abhor the knee jerk behind closed doors secrecy about THE MOST TRIVIAL THINGS that have to do with the organization. I will not trust that writing an email to you will fulfill what I want this whole affair to do - make it plain to existing members of SFWA that keeping abreast of what the internet is now can help the organization stay appealing, and to show that there are more people interested in SFWA than you might think - but are so far unwilling to make the commitment of joining. But I am not going to tuck that statement away where it can disappear into the haze of secrecy that dismays so many of us. I have it right here, and anyone who is a livejournal member or has a typekey identity is welcome to comment if they wish.

And while I am here, let me say that when [info]tanaise asked the candidates to tell her why she should join as a member... well, pointing her to the FAQ written by the current president was a tragic, utterly tragic, response. you see, she's read it. I've read it. I was hoping that somebody would realize that the answer given in the FAQ is an answer that alienates the potential membership instead of attracting them. that the answers given in that faq are actually offensive to me and others like me. In the first message that I had originally written in response to an SFWA board member, I said "so if you want people like me - and I'm not assuming for a second that you actually do - "

well, let's say that my assumption is still unchanged.




(on the John Scalzi is not pro enough for this or fan enough for that - this morning, I explained what an apa was to someone. I also included my statement that grasped my understanding of the concept: "this is what you did in the olden days, before citadel.net." this makes me painfully neo and crusty old at the same time.)

That's it! It was your LJ! I couldn't remember.
I prowl a lot in my LJ friend's f-lists, you see. And that's how it works, and how it's going to work. The marbles have fallen out the medicine cabinet.






...and it was such a *perfect* demonstration of how it works! everybody could say, "saw it on an f-list" but no one remembered WHO. and that's the way it works. the information wiggles its way across the friendslist telegraph, and nobody knows where it started unless they can be arsed to go look, and it doesn't matter.

It's where I got it. :-)

...and then made it so that non members could not post comments to the community and answer the damned question, even though it is plain that he wishes to know WHO WAS FIRST

THANK YOU. OMG, I saw the post appear on my flist and silly me, I clicked reply because I thought, "Oh well, I'll try to be helpful." And then I realized I couldn't post because I wasn't a member.

That put me off so much that I closed my browser and walked away. It's not welcoming to potential members. All it tells me is that what I have to say doesn't matter.

And even if he just wanted to know who had been first, it still would have been useful to leave the comments open to everyone. Because I bet not everyone watching that group first heard from you. (FWIW, two other people on my flist passed on the existence of the comm.)

yes. and that's actually how I knew my effort was successful, because after a few days, names showed up on that list that went outside my particular friendcloud. not everyone heard it directly from me, but most of them can probably say, "read it on my f-list, can't remember who."

It's not welcoming to potential members. All it tells me is that what I have to say doesn't matter.It's not welcoming to potential members. All it tells me is that what I have to say doesn't matter.

As I've explained elsewhere, no one from SFWA set up the community. I did on my own, and am waiting to hear from the BoD to see what they want me to do with the darn thing. So please don't take it as an affront from SFWA, or believe that it means that SFWA doesn't want to hear from you.

At the moment, a lot of non-members are posting at sff.net.sfwa over on SFF Net, and their voices are in fact being heard. That's a public newsgroup anyone can post in. What [info]sfwa is, has yet to be determined.

I'm one of the people who tried to respond to your question. You still haven't succeeded in changing the permissions to allow non-friends to post, if that's possible ... if it isn't possible, you ought to edit your post to reflect that fact, just to avoid annoying people.

I think that underlying this kerfuffle is a close relative of the "information must be free!" notion. To wit, I am perhaps not the only one who's baffled by your extreme care about setting up the community. Why not just state that it's an UNOFFICIAL community for SFWA members and potential members? Are they such (expletive deleted)s that they've trademarked the 4 letters and would sic lawyers on you for setting up an unofficial community? It's weird. It doesn't make sense. If they the Board decides it likes the idea, it can always adopt the community and make if official. Otherwise, it's unofficial, so they can just ignore it.

But maybe I'm just too new-fashioned.

Why not just state that it's an UNOFFICIAL community for SFWA members and potential members?

Because I created it to offer it to SFWA as an official community. Now, if they don't want it to be an official community, it can become something else. However, I'm pleased to report that it looks like the wheels are starting to turn...

Because I created it to offer it to SFWA as an official community.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm more of an "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" sort of person. 8-D

They pointed you to the FAQ?

I don't actually think pointing someone to an FAQ for that sort of thing is in and of itself an inappropriate or insulting maneuver. That's part of why FAQs exist, after all, and if someone thinks the FAQ in question provides the answer they would give, well, so be it.

(That said, I do agree that this particular FAQ is not ideal.)

yeah, it's not my objection to "see the FAQ."

It's that this particular FAQ is

NOT

an answer designed to welcome, and they have no damn idea that it is not.

I think what I found the most troublesome about it was a) the assumption that I hadn't found it myself and b) that one or possibly two of them basically said, "This says all I could say, but better." They truly agree with everything on that page? They don't see the parts that are offensive?

I can't really blame anyone for wanting to establish that people have Googled or whatever. You'd think it would be obvious, but man, I just came from a message board where someone (justifiably, imo) posted up a big ol' rant saying essential, "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION, PEOPLE!" So. Yeah.

But I'm with you on b), and I wouldn't mind seeing more personal responses in general.

It's true, they do often seem to assume that everyone is as technologically backwards as they are, and thus point to the easy answers, whereas when one of us seems to have a question, I note that we usually do explicitly say, "I checked around, but couldn't find a good answer" (as you did with the volunteer stuff, for example.)

Ah, I've missed those statements. I sit corrected!

(I do still think, though, that it assumes too much to assume anyone is assuming anything.)

And that's essentially what Derryl Murphy said too when Jo Walton asked the same question on Scalzi's blog -- see the FAQ, and there's medical and legal whatnots.

I don't think they have any idea what their culture looks like from outside.

I just posted a link to this entry in the comments of the relevant post.

I loves you!

did I tells you lately that I loves you?

Exactly. Freakin' exactly.

When I was still reading the electionblog (I have since averted mine eyes, on the decision that writing is a better thing for me as a pro SF writer to do right now than watching people fight, or worse, reiterate answers that were provided four posts ago) -- there was more than one occasion where Mr. Capobianco or someone else who self-defined as highly involved in SFWA said, "This is not the place for this kind of argument; let's move it behind closed doors." Any time there was the slightest chance we might see how SFWA members resolve things, someone wanted it hushed up.

I'm utterly familiar with the idea that you don't want to air your family's dirty laundry in public. But you know what's worse than airing dirty laundry in public? Giving people the impression that your house is packed to the rafters with dirty laundry in all but one room, which is shiny and clean and provides medical and legal assistance.

SFWA may not be the trash house of writers' organizations, but they're certainly doing a good job of giving that impression.

...yes.

and I also fear that they will never, never understand why we are so oversensitive about the way things are done around here.

but I know a bit about volunteer run, common interest groups. and there are red flags all over how SFWA handles itself. it's not a healthy group - it's not dying of some fibrodysplasia variant, but it's got a nasty case of the flu.

And a structure that provides individual viruses plenty of opportunity to run off with large parts of the body's resources.

All in all, I'm pretty much of the opinion that SFWA's a lot like leprosy.

yes, exactly.

that "if you are not a member you will not BE A MEMBER NOR WILL YOU COUNT EVER OR EVER TOO BAD SO SAD SUCKA"

REALLY annoyed the piss out of me.

my tender hide is pretty chapped, really.

and I have to say with the lj community - I know that it's not ready - that doesn't mean that it is not a good idea.

and I really, really hope that when it is ready, it doesn't slam the door in our faces.

to me it feels like he just did, ready or not. He could have built it for now, that no one could post and left it a place holder. but he didn't.

I apologize if you felt like I slammed a door in your face. I honestly didn't mean to.

I just wasn't sure what to do when people started friending it. If it makes you feel better, I can go back, revoke all memberships, and close the place up until the Board of Directors decides what to do with it. Let me know.

well I honestly think as its yours/their community, that you should do what you want -- but from what I see these days, there is a bit of a chasm between the older, more established SFWA members and those of us that are currently trying to build our own publishing careers.

I think it would be nice if we could view the subjects and be more involved in some of the conversations that our 'professional organization' is interested in (and I realize some of them are, now, but most people do not have the time to wade through hundreds of messages). I realize that you do have to be a 'member' of SFWA and with membership comes a certain luxury of availability to SFWA information, but as SFWA is its change-stage (or seems to be, right now), as a writer who will one day be able to choose to become or not become a full-fledged member, I would like to have access to at least some of the workings of SFWA because that is what I will base my decisions on.

well I honestly think as its yours/their community, that you should do what you want

The thing is, right now the community isn't anyone's. Just like Will Shetterly thought it would be a good idea for someone to secure the letters SFWA at blogspot, I thought it would be a good idea for someone to secure the letters SFWA on LiveJournal. I grabbed it as a community rather than a blog since that seemed more in the style of LiveJournal. I wasn't expecting people to start showing up and assuming that on behalf of SFWA I was locking them out. I was expecting the BoD to take some time, figure out if they wanted the community to be an official SFWA space, and then tell me what they'd like done with it. I know they're dealing with a lot of other issues right now, so I've been waiting patiently.

Right now, I've seen a major discussion on SFF Net in sff.sfwa (I think that's the name) where non-members are voicing their concerns about SFWA. If you want someone who is actually part of running the organization to see what you have to say, that would be a good place to post.

Anyway, I am sorry if you thought I was being deliberately insulting in any way. I was trying to do something that I thought would be good for both SFWA and folks on LJ, and instead I seem to have ticked people off, for which I apologize.

no worries -- as chelsea said we're glad to see the commmunity and there's a lot of people that would like to be able to see what happens there if it gets off the ground :)

Man, you have my sympathy! The good thing about Blogger's crummy commenting system is that no one expects it to be friendly.

I'll probably release the blogger sites into the wild if they don't prove useful. I think for what we want to do, LJ is the better choice. Good going!

And, folks, do forgive us as we try to figure out what life is like in your century. Pictures that move and talk. How can we cope? But we must. We shall. Be brave, fellow SFWAns, be brave!

hi will! good to see you.

and that was what my action was originally trying to communicate. "welcome to our internet. we are interested. please note that you have built in viral marketing if you continue to hang out here. where do we put our shoes?"

Put 'em anywhere you'd like! Okay, it'd be nice if it was somewhere no one'll trip on 'em, but bring your friends and come on it!

Which seems to be happening, which pleases me.

oh, no, that's not it at all.

it was posting a public message that was addressed to everyone watching, but making it so that the majority of those watching could not answer your question right there - that's what made the doorslam effect happen. that's what got up my nose so I posted to my lj and trusted in the f-list telegraph to get this answer to you. not changing the message permissions.

a simple mistake, is all. but we are touchy, excluded, generally unloved, and sad about that.

I honestly have no problem with you replying here instead of emailing me if that's what you wanted to do.

The reason that I've set up the community the way it is at the moment is a simple one – although I served as Secretary of SFWA in 1998-2000, at the moment I have no official standing in the organization. I don't really have the authority to set up a space on LJ and call it an official SFWA space. When people started discovering it, I was confused, and I did what I could to let people know that it was a placeholder while I asked the current BoD what they wanted me to do with the place. Frankly, at the moment there's no major private discussion going on in the community because I've asked people to wait. The only private posts are one from me, telling members that this is a placeholder, and one from [info]ccfinlay, suggesting that we use the community to warn people that the Nebula hotel deadline is approaching, which I did in a public post.

To my way of thinking, the fact that you've gotten lots of people interested in watching [info]sfwa is a good thing, as it might help convince the BoD that there really is a strong interest in an official SFWA presence over here on LiveJournal. But frankly, my hope is that if the BoD decides on making the space official, they'll appoint someone else to take it off my hands. I doubt Will Shetterly intends to run http://sfwa.blogspot.com either.

excellent. I would much rather have this conversation where people can point and quote.

it was absolutely obvious that SFWA was no ready. that it was in potential, and didn't know what it wanted to be when it grew up.

but here's something to think about - if we hadn't done this, how likely would SFWA's action on forming this lj community be: "it can also be a place where interested non members can mix with members, too!"

not to say that's going to happen. I feared at the beginning that the interested nons would be shut out, and I will not be surprised if that proves to be exactly what happens. but, it might not, and if my effort nudged people into entertaining the possibility, well, I've been a good active citizen and that's good enough for me.

and you know, if you don't want to moderate it I am SURE that SFWA can find someone to do that. there are lots of SF writers on LJ, and lots of them are like SFWA members, and would know how to moderate an LJ comm. you found out that it could be a good idea, and that makes you a good active citizen in sf. now pass that buck, fast.

Wow. Go Chelsea. Policy changes in the community already. Let's hear it for the squeaky wheel.

And for [info]mabfan for being willing to listen. Thank you.

One correction, please. As I keep trying to explain, there was no SFWA policy before. I was waiting to find out what SFWA policy would be on the community before making it go completely live. As it turned out, SFWA has decided to make the community a place for outreach, which seems to me to be a good thing.

I meant the community policy, but fair enough. I stand corrected.

they did?

they did?

*runs to look*

they did!

*joins*

Dang--I just pointed someone who asked "Why join SFWA?" to the SFWA web page and that blasted FAQs area. Now, I feel foolish. (Have I read them? Um, gee, I'm sure I did at some point. Guess I should go back and really look at them.) I did also give her my phone number and ask her to call me if she wanted to chat about it.

My feeling is that if you want to change SFWA, why not join and do so? If enough people with the same sensibilities join, change for the better will occur.

I like the idea of using the new SFWA lj community for outreach. Why not start with a bang?

Diane

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Diane Turnshek
SFWA Eastern Regional Director
724 863-1345
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think it would be an interesting exercise, actually. If you wanted to go back and have a look at that faq, and see what impression you walk away with, well, i would be quite interested in your findings.

and I have to repeat - again, and still gently - that paying 70 USD to join an organization that I know walking into it does not suit my needs in the hopes of being able to wrest it away from a lot of established people who see me as a threat--I grew up way too poor to do something that stupid.

essentially, asking me to join SFWA is to ask me to come and build it - and it would actually be much easier to start over here with the Cranky Young Bastards International Coalition of Genre Hacks - Sticking it to the Man since 2007!

the thing is I know way more people who are not inclined to join sfwa - or people who joined, but chose not to renew after one year, than I do actual members of sfwa.

I bet you would say exactly the same thing in reverse. you totally don't have to believe me about the people who qualify for SFWA who won't join - because I could make up herds and herds of them. but you have provable data in your hands in your membership lists. what percentage of people who joined in 2000 did not renew in 2001, etc. etc.? who are these people? have they apparently gone off and quit writing, or are they continuing their careers?

Why do they join, and then drop out and don't come back?

You're the Eastern Regional Director for SFWA? Learn something new every day I guess.

There actually are a couple of questions I have that you're definitely the one to ask: is SFWA supporting Alpha? What, or what else, has SFWA done to mitigate the significant disgruntlement you expressed to me on the cancellation of the Mentorship program?